It may be time to look into expanding Apogee

We don’t need to sell out every game before expanding. We prob need to sell out at least one though...let’s tap the brakes on the expansion until we are at least averaging close to a sell out with some games having considerably higher demand than capacity. 

 

The last thing our atmosphere needs right now is 10,000 more empty seats. 

As long as we are modifying Apogee, when do we get our future ribbon video board?

Where is the Athletic Department financials and budget that shows we're woefully buried in debt?

I thought the debt service on Apogee was easily managed after the naming rights, donations, and student fees?

Let's fill up the wing once, then we can talk. 

 

 

If you guys remember the Consultants Report, one of the glaring deficiencies was facilities.   That is one of the AD's top priorities, and as long as we're having demand met we're not going to spend facilities money on expanding a stadium.

We still need A LOT of other facilities first.  There will be a new basketball arena on the hill before there is any talk of  expanding Apogee.  Unless we are turning away 1000s of people who want to buy tickets, or a dozen big companies who are just clamoring for new box seats.  

10 hours ago, Cerebus said:

If you guys remember the Consultants Report, one of the glaring deficiencies was facilities.   That is one of the AD's top priorities, and as long as we're having demand met we're not going to spend facilities money on expanding a stadium.

We still need A LOT of other facilities first.  There will be a new basketball arena on the hill before there is any talk of  expanding Apogee.  Unless we are turning away 1000s of people who want to buy tickets, or a dozen big companies who are just clamoring for new box seats.  

I’m hoping they pivot on the basketball arena. The super pit is fine. Moving the arena further from the dorms would be a mistake. 

24 minutes ago, Mean Green Matt said:

I’m hoping they pivot on the basketball arena. The super pit is fine. Moving the arena further from the dorms would be a mistake. 

I just don’t want my tailgating spot to go away. I love the hill. 

27 minutes ago, Snowy said:

I just don’t want my tailgating spot to go away. I love the hill. 

There’s that also. It’s one thing to get students to walk across the highway 6 times a year for football. Basketball is something else entirely. If a new arena is built it needs to be on the main campus side of the highway. 

1 hour ago, Mean Green Matt said:

I’m hoping they pivot on the basketball arena. The super pit is fine. Moving the arena further from the dorms would be a mistake. 

I'm totally in the dark on this but my immediate thought is, maybe they want a bball facility to call their own? The AD does not own the Super Pit.

On 9/4/2018 at 4:49 AM, golfingomez said:

no... 

Even taking into account your argument about scheduling the P5's for 1 (maybe 2 games?) a year, that would only apply to Texas or Oklahoma schools. Realistically, only OK St, Baylor, Tech, TCU and maaayyyyyybe A&M would give us a home game. 

Additionally, we are living in a world where college football attendance is dwindling across the board, expanding without the excessive need would seem to be a large expense for little return. 

Keep Apogee the same size and just turn it into a hot ticket.

Gotta disagree with you here. Get a P5 school to do a home-and-home, and there will be oodles of football fans excited to see them (and not pay for travel), even if they aren't alums of the school. Get a Michigan or Penn State or Stanford in there and it will be packed. This will require better scheduling, but we can't schedule like that without space to accommodate.

This argument that attendance is dwindling is interesting to me.  As has been stated millions of times, we have 100,000+ alumni in the DFW market and around 40,000 students/faculty/staff/etc... on campus.  Apogee seats roughly 31,000 and has room to grow to, IMHO, no more than 50,000.  Some of these schools, UT and A&M for instance, get in a pecker swinging contest with their rivals to see who has to largest stadium and end up with these places that seat over 100,000.  When their team isn't performing, they are selling these places out.  

We have room to grow where others should probably reduce their capacity.

This is what ADLER said in bold & I've never heard it said better & with such brevity. (The "quote" link was not available for whatever reason).  

______________________________________

I know there is the "keep selling it out first" argument, and I hear you, but you're wrong.

But, having a 30K stadium and a 28K fan base is going to keep regional P5 schools from wanting to schedule games at Apogee. The costs of not expanding Apogee may therefore exceed the costs of expansion through lost revenue. 

One of the main reasons schools would schedule UNT is to provide a game in the metroplex that their DFW fans and alumni can attend. Unlike SMU we do not have a practically empty stadium to offer.

Where would the fans of Baylor, Kansas State, Texas Tech, A&M, or TCU sit if we were to schedule them? North Texas was able to host Baylor, Kansas State, and TCU at Fouts Field because we had a relatively small fan base at the time. That is simply not he case now. Games against Texas Tech and A&M were diverted to the Cowboys Stadium because our own stadium couldn't accommodate the crowds. We certainly don't want to have to do that again.

Growing pains. What a great thing to have.

I hope they have an architectural plan for extension ready and if they don't it may be time to order one. If numbers go up quickly you'd then be ready. But until UNT averages at least 25k two seasons in a row there is no need to start collecting monies on it.

Apart from this, as someone already mentioned, The schedule is made until like 2027, so there isn't actually much of lost opportunity, even if UNT were to expand quickly as that also would hinder cashing in on expansion.

Third, if the fan base actually were to grow like that, UNT would likely also bring more fans to away games and be itself a better known and more interesting home and home opponent for lower and middle-class G5s like Texas Tech, Baylor, Oklahoma State or Vanderbilt. Those ADs also don't want to hear from their fans all the time how they are only bringing in teams nobody's ever heard of. If UNT starts getting a sellout or two per season, people will start to hear about it. So far the number of sellouts has been 0. I trust this will change, but this talk is premature.

 

On 9/4/2018 at 11:25 AM, UNTLifer said:

The City of Denton will do this once Apogee is completely built out, along with the other facilities at Eagle Point and then expand it.  It's what they do.

Um excuse you, the City of Denton has had Bonnie Brae widening as one its top CIP items for years. Engineering is complete and the southern-most extensions are underway. We'll see action in front of Apogee starting next year:

https://www.cityofdenton.com/en-us/government/strategic-initiatives/capital-improvement

Quote

This will widen existing Bonnie Brae St. from two lanes to a divided four lane road between Vintage Blvd. and I-35E; and will widen Vintage Blvd. from two lanes to a divided six lane road from the I-35W Frontage Rd. to US 377. 

 

56 minutes ago, Christopher Walker said:

Um excuse you, the City of Denton has had Bonnie Brae widening as one its top CIP items for years. Engineering is complete and the southern-most extensions are underway. We'll see action in front of Apogee starting next year:

https://www.cityofdenton.com/en-us/government/strategic-initiatives/capital-improvement

 

Well, I was being sarcastic, and if my math is correct, they are doing this 7-8 years after Apogee opened.  It's what they do.

Just more speculating, but what kind of schools might North Texas schedule who'd bring a bunch of fans to either a 31,000 seat or   a 40,000 seat Apogee Stadium?  

SUMG has told me forever that BYU would be such a school for an Apogee appearance or 2 or 3  because of all the Mormons in DFW.  Our largest crowd until last Saturday evening was against Baylor U & we know Baptists are plentiful in DFW & the Lone Star State.  

The below link is how this group in Utah sees their future in a hopeful TV revenue-producing environment.  The kind of revenue environment that would make a 40K seat Apogee make more sense if we in our future had a similar P5 kind of TV revenue existence.  

 https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/07/28/byus-declaration-football/

Edited September 7, 2018 by PlummMeanGreen

9 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Well, I was being sarcastic, and if my math is correct, they are doing this 7-8 years after Apogee opened.  It's what they do.

Yes, typical city of Denton. Worst group of bureaucrats anywhere around who can’t plan ahead to save their life.

On 9/5/2018 at 8:46 AM, Cerebus said:

If you guys remember the Consultants Report, one of the glaring deficiencies was facilities.   That is one of the AD's top priorities, and as long as we're having demand met we're not going to spend facilities money on expanding a stadium.

We still need A LOT of other facilities first.  There will be a new basketball arena on the hill before there is any talk of  expanding Apogee.  Unless we are turning away 1000s of people who want to buy tickets, or a dozen big companies who are just clamoring for new box seats.  

NT does not need a new basketball arena.  If you want an local example of the new plastic looking arenas go to UTA's.  I prefer the SP, but even if I didn't, there are lot of things for NT to spend money on before a new basketball arena.  

It is early to talk expanding Apogee. If crowds like the last game continue then maybe.   Speaking of SP, the only NT basketball sell out was against SMU.  I don't anyone was talking about expanding it after that one game.  

The issue with Apogee is not the number of seats, but the quality of those seats.  That tail-feature section or any end zone seating is just not a good place to watch a game.  

2 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

NT does not need a new basketball arena.  If you want an local example of the new plastic looking arenas go to UTA's.  I prefer the SP, but even if I didn't, there are lot of things for NT to spend money on before a new basketball arena.  

12 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

Just more speculating, but what kind of schools might North Texas schedule who'd bring a bunch of fans to either a 31,000 seat or   a 40,000 seat Apogee Stadium?  

SUMG has told me forever that BYU would be such a school for an Apogee appearance or 2 or 3  because of all the Mormons in DFW.  Our largest crowd until last Saturday evening was against Baylor U & we know Baptists are plentiful in DFW & the Lone Star State.  

The below link is how this group in Utah sees their future in a hopeful TV revenue-producing environment.  The kind of revenue environment that would make a 40K seat Apogee make more sense if we in our future had a similar P5 kind of TV revenue existence.  

 https://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-cougars/2018/07/28/byus-declaration-football/

Couldn't agree more here--BYU is the OOC opponent that would make the most sense to schedule for a regular series into the future. They need decent teams to schedule, they get the DFW exposure they lost after TCU left the MWC and they went independent, and we get the Mormons who follow their team, as well as our fan numbers increasing due to a name program coming here. 

It amazes me that the Big XII is so greedy to not ever try and get BYU into their league. Almost everyone agrees that they are the best team out there not in a P5 league and the Sunday thing is absolutely simple to work around. Hell, the Big XII doesn't play basketball on Sundays now, and they could easily make concessions on this for BYU for other sports. They'd bring in extra money and get you a connection out west. But then I also remember something that the two big hosses in the Big XII also remember--BYU beat UT and OU  the last three times they played them, which is an ender for their chances--UT and OU aren't letting anyone in that can take their spot at the top. 

25 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

NT does not need a new basketball arena.  If you want an local example of the new plastic looking arenas go to UTA's.  I prefer the SP, but even if I didn't, there are lot of things for NT to spend money on before a new basketball arena.  

I can tell you leadership does not agree, I've seen the plans.

The University rents out the SP, they hate having to give up dates for BB events.  The athletic department hates not having control of the venue, thinks it's the wrong size, lacks amenities, and wants to combine vb and bb practice space.

New arena is down the list, but it's way ahead of apogee expansion or even a baseball program.

I like basketball and I like the Super Pit.  I would put a new basketball arena behind a lot of things and a baseball team being one of them. How many P5 schools do not have a baseball team?

7 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

I can tell you leadership does not agree, I've seen the plans.

The University rents out the SP, they hate having to give up dates for BB events.  The athletic department hates not having control of the venue, thinks it's the wrong size, lacks amenities, and wants to combine vb and bb practice space.

New arena is down the list, but it's way ahead of apogee expansion or even a baseball program.

Why couldn't the university buy the Super Pit from the City of Denton? 

43 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Why couldn't the university buy the Super Pit from the City of Denton? 

I think you misunderstood.  The University owns the arena and rents it out for other events.  It is not owned by Athletics.

  It seems the issue may be ownership of the facility within UNT more so than the facility itself. 

56 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

I can tell you leadership does not agree, I've seen the plans.

The University rents out the SP, they hate having to give up dates for BB events.  The athletic department hates not having control of the venue, thinks it's the wrong size, lacks amenities, and wants to combine vb and bb practice space.

New arena is down the list, but it's way ahead of apogee expansion or even a baseball program.

It's comments like this that make me finally believe in the leadership and therefore the future. The way up the food chain is not with a new sport added (baseball) it's investment in the only two sports that matter to the bottom line.